Towards the end of Drive-In Liminal

[papacerberus]

At this point, there are some things we can confirm that have happened. Somehow the last Jaunt ended in a tie, and that Lovers was returned because of it. Before this, I briefly spoke on my belief that a single Arcana winning this game is not the best outcome, but I was unsure of the possibility of encouraging ties, and bringing back those who’ve been eliminated.

Now that both of those things have been confirmed, I think it’s time to open the discussion again.

My thoughts are this: That the Arcana are all important in their own ways, and for a truly balanced world, they should all be reflected equally. There are obstacles to this in that some of them have been killed, but Emperor confirmed that completing the game will bring the dead back. There are also obstacles in the fact that the Arcana themselves don’t seem aware or willing to consider the possibility of joint wins. Of course, to succeed, we would need to find a way to alter the rules, and gain the cooperation of at least one of the Arcana.

That last point I think should be the first step, but before I proceed, I wanted to hold a discussion. There may be things I’ve missed, or don’t have the experience to properly understand, and coming together to share ideas will make us stronger and more cohesive for it.

Comments

[itsananimalthing]

They're aware of the possibility. They just don't want it. We were lucky this time-- if you can call it that-- because Hermit and Death chose things they wanted in order to win that could both happen at the same time. That ain't always gonna be the case.

Not that there ain't somethin' to talk about, here, but don't expect the possibility of a tie all that often. Don't think they were exactly happy with this outcome.

[papacerberus]

I don't expect it to be easy, or without sacrifices, but I think it might be worth the effort to ensure that all worlds are as stable and balanced as possible after this.

If we can get one or more of the Arcana to agree with this idea or one similar, they could then continue to choose options which would allow for winning together. That's why I think getting cooperation is the first step, and that requires talking to them. I've only managed to converse with two so far, and not about this subject precisely.

[theflyingone]

Play to what they call their 'idioms'. They will side with their theme. They know no other way to live. Of course, they are open to interpretation, so this is dubious at best. And, it may be that even thought your idea matches their beliefs, one may still think that they are the only one who can carry them out if they win.

[papacerberus]

I fear that the one that would match most closely is dead, but otherwise, the suggestion has merit. The last part is something I've been thinking about, and I don't have a solution.

Working, or being alone is... foreign to me.

[otomechapilot]

...Honestly that's what I've been thinking.

Each Arcana, like in the cards, is a different part of growing up, right? Each is a step on the journey. You need all of them at different times.

Somehow I think that it would be a big win for Fool if everyone won.

[fridgeninja]

If we do the math, either Lovers isn't the only one back, or they'll need to add another loser back in later, or they'll need to have a three-way Jaunt. Tournament brackets have to be in exponents of two.

So, if we want an Arcana to cooperate with us, we should start with one that's already lost, or that's closely allied to one who's lost.

[theflyingone]

There is always a solution, but it might not be one you'd like to entertain.

[papacerberus]

They may just be planning an extra jaunt at some point to even things out. But if the first option is the case, we'll have less work to do to bring the rest back in.

That may work, but I'm concerned that those who've lost so far would be disinterested in helping, or their type of aid would be more destructive than helpful to our cause. Devil, Tower, and Moon have an important place in the world, but they're volatile.

[That, and Lupa might be holding a grudge against Moon for Raidou's... everything.]

But perhaps Lovers could be convinced to help us. Their attributes include connections and bonds.

[papacerberus]

That is true.

[Lupa knows what things he doesn't want to entertain with this, but he can probe a bit.]

What would your solution be?

[papacerberus]

I agree fully. All of them are important, even the ones that people dislike. When I look back at my world, I can see so many things that fit Tower, and I can't imagine a better way for events to have proceeded, even with all the pain, death and upheaval.

Fool might be someone worth reaching out to for aid, although I don't know how I'd manage contact.

[itsananimalthing]

If you wanna try, go for it, just don't be surprised if you don't get anybody except maybe one or two to agree, probably those one or two who already just did it. And one or two ain't gonna be enough.

Which two did you talk to?

[papacerberus]

I must try. Failing is a much better outcome than doing nothing at all.

I've spoken with Emperor and Justice. I'm not sure either is truly capable of understanding operating outside rules that have already been laid down to initiate new ones.

[itsananimalthing]

Justice might surprise you. Emperor, maybe not, I ain't met him. But Justice is all about truth and clear thought, she might be able to understand, even if she don't agree.

[Says the guy who just met her on accident.]

There's other things these guys want than just bringing their dead back, though. They got enemies, and they got plans. You gotta convince them to put aside those things if they're gonna do this. Best options to start with would be these two. Death and Hermit.

[fridgeninja]

I could try to talk to her about that. She likes me.

But she likes me the way that you like a doll or a model on a shelf. You wouldn't put yourself on a doll's side, or take an agreement with a toy battleship seriously. It would just be a game where you were the only person eho mattered.

[papacerberus]

I did respect her when we spoke. If I can find a way, I would like to speak with her again.

[There's a sense of agreement, like Lupa is nodding physically where he's at.]

Death is one that I've very much wished to speak with as well. I'll look further into Hermet too. As for their enemies, I don't mind assisting them in the worlds they send us to. If there are threats to the worlds, I'm willing to fight them. Of course, I'd prefer to know what is needed beforehand, but that perhaps can be worked out.

If we can change the game, I believe everyone can benefit, including all the Arcana.

[papacerberus]

So similar to the way that Emperor sees us all as children. I discussed with him how trust is earned by giving trust, but I don't know if he understood.

Do you believe she can be convinced of our worth?

[fridgeninja]

Maybe. But only if we can demonstrate something that shocks her out of her attitude, and I'm not sure we want to do something like that.

[papacerberus]

It might be difficult, but it might also be worth it. Since you've spoken with her, do you have any thoughts about what might shock her out of those attitudes?

[Lupa's first thought is somehow capturing one of the Arcana, but he dismisses it immediately. They aren't here to make war, and it would probably have the opposite of the desired effect anyway.]

[fridgeninja]

A display of power. It's easy to think of people who can't change your circumstances as being unreal.

[papacerberus]

[There's silence for perhaps a little too long.]

A display of power that could be interpreted as military would do the opposite of our intent. But there must be a more peaceful way to do something. Perhaps a challenge or competition, and emerging victorious in spite of the general difference in raw power...

[fridgeninja]

Isn't that kind of thing the game they brought us to play?

Forcing a tie might work. We know they notice unexpected losses because they punish us for them. We know they react very negatively when we rebel or go on strike. So an unexpected win might be different.

We could also try to specifically target one of their enemies, like the Illuminants or the Manticore, but only when a Jaunt places us in a world where they exist; and I'm not convinced we want to help those other forces - or that they deserve to be attacked.

[papacerberus]

In their game, they are competing against each other, and we're merely pieces on the game board. In that case, I would suggest a competition that pits us Travelers against one or more of them, for a specific goal that's not related to a jaunt.

Forcing another tie may be the way getting their attention has to happen, however. Assuming we know which two are competing on a jaunt, I might be able to deduce their goals.

[He's never tried to read an Arcanum's will, but he's willing to take the risk, if necessary, and if it works, they might be able to adjust things somehow to force a tie.]

Of course, it would need to be a world in which the goals won't cause more harm. I don't want to endanger a world if it can be at all avoided. Your concerns about the enemies sound much the same reasoning there.

[Suddenly.]

I wonder, if we could amass enough power, if we could break through into a world that we've already visited before. Many of us already can break through between a concurrent jaunt and walkabout. Breaking through to a past world seems reasonable to assume as possible, if on another magnitude of difficulty.

[fridgeninja]

For something like that... you'd want someone who can boost their liminal abilities, someone who can bridge Liminal Spaces, as many different people with 'Assist' as possible, and people who can pool their skills...

Maybe Summoners and Necromancers, or someone with a deep connection to the world we're trying to reach.

[papacerberus]

I have, myself, or know those who do, most of those possible requirements. This bears looking into further.

I think the Pogemon world, or Questing Country are the most likely to be reached, considering that we have both Pogemon and Familiars here, and it would make sense to me that they still retain some connection to their original world.

[fridgeninja]

I wouldn't mind seeing Questing Country again. It might help that all of Questing Country felt like its own kind of 'Liminal Space', too...