synopsychic | [A few days into liminal space] Judged Conversations

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[A few days into liminal space] Judged Conversations

Pardon, everyone, it's Lyall again. But I thought people might like to hear about my conversation with Judgment, our current Jaunt winner. They were kind enough to bring me into their conversation space for a little while, though I am not sure they will do it again. They weren't particularly pleased with me, by the end.

I asked about the conditions for winning, first, and about why Fool considered her dangerous to leave intruding Travelers with. The first answer was fairly straight-forward: there weren't enough "new beginnings", and everyone moved on with what they learned rather than change things up, I suppose. Their exact words were that the various crises "were resolved within the bounds available, rather than forged into new beginnings."

They were less forthcoming about the dangerous part. I believe they did not consider themselves dangerous, they said they would merely "dismiss" Thorne and Matthew, but they... hesitated in a rather human sort of way before answering. I'm fairly sure that didn't mean they were lying... but they could have been reluctant to reply, or uncertain of a proper response, or else dancing about the truth a bit. Said they would just "dismiss" Thorne and Matthew, but not the method they would have used. They are apparently concerned with us staying in our roles, because "taking action" beyond our roles and "exploiting" our roles, is what killed Fortuna and Hoshiko-- Fortune and Star, I believe, yes?

I know there have been discussions about their deaths, but I had been under the impression that it had been less an issue of anything we did and more an issue of their particular idioms waning too much to sustain them. Am I remembering it wrong, was there some sort of action on our part that was taken to bring about their deaths?

I'm willing to share the memory of the conversation, if anyone wants it. It was a bit frustrating. Like they wanted me to understand them without them ever actually explaining themselves.

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Great, they'd get along well with half the Internet.

Emperor Emperor did directly blame the Travelers for Star's death, but it sounds like Judgement is blowing everything out of proportion.

Did he say why or how? Because all I'd gathered was it had something to do with Travelers losing hope after Moebius, which, honestly, seems to have nothing at all to do with our roles, as they seemed to mean it.

I don't think so, but I wasn't directly involved in the conversation. [And she's not sure she'd trust Altair to give any less biased of a report than his first one was, even if he were here to weigh in right now.]

Maybe it has something to do with how they're defining our 'role'? I mean, half these guys get pissy when we figure out new Liminal tricks, and it definitely sounds like Penuel is one of those guys. And there's the stuff about literally everyone just fucking off the jaunt before Moebius, which is why Moebius was set up the way it was, so... maybe they just expect us to sit back and be good little jaunt-solving pawns.

I did try to explain to them that humans-- well, mortals in general, given how many of us aren't actually human-- that mortals simply don't sit still well. That one of our main drives is to explore and learn, and then use what we learned. They seemed to ignore that part of the conversation entirely.

[He sounds a little disappointed by that.]

Their loss, sounds like.

As if you should just understand it, because you were similar enough to have been Marked as one of theirs?

Exactly. Which is ridiculous, because unless I know where they're coming from, there's no way I can understand how they came to their conclusions. Context is important, and they wouldn't give me the context.

..Do you think it's possible that they also don't understand how they reached their conclusions? It may just be that they haven't ever given things any deep thought, and just are working functionally on instinct, and that they expected that someone similar enough to them would follow the same way of thinking.

Hmm. I don't... think so. Maybe if they were mortal, perhaps, but they aren't. They're ideas. The ideas that Judgment stands for would include understanding of such a thing, because they have to judge before they can forgive. You have to reflect before you can accept that you did something wrong. So it's possible, but not very likely.

I think it's more likely they just don't realize how little we really know, and how certain conclusions require more details than we have.

If all of the ideas are present in their representation.

It sounds like they have a poor understanding of people as a whole.

Considering how much they're focusing on "judging" right now, I can't see how it wouldn't be present in themselves at the moment.

But you're right in that I don't think they really understand people very well.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if they ever listen to themselves talk.

Oh, probably. They just don't really think there's anything wrong with it. They don't understand, I think, where we're coming from.

I'm beginning to wonder if they were ever capable of it, and if so what the hell happened to change that. But if something did happen, I don't see them explaining it anytime soon.

Probably not, given how little they wanted to tell me. I suppose I might have to go back over the network and look for what I can find on Star and Fortune's deaths... see if there are any clues in the discussion.

[That sounds so tedious, though, ugh.]

'Fraid I can't help you there.

[That's not an ability she's picked up yet. Sorry, Lyall. ]

How many new beginnings is enough new beginnings?

[Ryo does not understand.]

I don't know, Ryo. I don't know how much of what we did counted as a new beginning and what didn't. Nothing fundamentally changed about how Questing Country operates, unless you count trying to fold the fiery aliens into things.

Fiery aliens need friends too!

[This much seems obvious to Ryo.]

That was a new beginning for them with new friends, wasn't it?

I don't know. Maybe to be a new beginning in the way Fool would have needed, Questing Country would have had to fundamentally change-- be taken over by the fiery aliens entirely, or rid of them somehow. But that's only a guess.

Questing Country good the way it is!

[But Ryo's biased.]

And Arcana were very mean with the boos...

Yes, they were. I don't see why they couldn't have just asked, rather than sneaking about and keeping you all from communicating-- but then, I suppose they're not really used to thinking of the people on Jaunts as, well, people. They don't always all seem to even think of us as people.

Is very sad! Even bugs have feelings!

Judgement is named Penuel, right? I remember asking PSYCHE if there were other times than Moebius that they thought Travelers needed punishment. Apparently Penuel had wanted to once or twice but couldn't get enough of the others to agree with them...

So I'm not surprised Fool doesn't want her alone with Travelers...

Yes, that's them. Penuel. Do you recall, or did Psyche say, what those times were? They might be related to Fortune and Star's deaths, as that is what Penuel seemed to focus on, but I still don't have enough data to put together why.

Sorry, it didn't occur to me to ask and she didn't explain.

It's all right, you couldn't have known at the time. Perhaps if you see her again, though, she might have gossip to share.

I'll keep it in mind as a potential thing to ask, whenever I pop in for a visit again. She's usually very talkative.

The talkative ones are the ones more likely to let things slip. From what I gather, there are a lot of things we've learned from someone or another talking to her in particular.

Yeah. Whether she's just talking or actually providing information on purpose, it's a good chance.

[someone is so not surprised to hear all of this]

And do you still think she'd be a good candidate for winning this thing?

They aren't a she, Matthew. Just so you know. They are a they.

[If Matthew even cares.]

And I still think the idiom is a good choice to win. I never said I thought Penuel themselves was a good choice. Whether the idiom can be divorced from their personality is another matter that I, again, don't have enough data to know yet.

[Considering that he’s someone who regularly switches from singular to plural pronouns, with little to no care about which one to go with...no, he probably doesn’t find it as important as others might. But he doesn’t argue against it]

Fine. They. But we find the chance of their idiom being ‘divorced’ from their personality unlikely. They're not just someone who puts on a Judgement hat and goes to clock in her 8 hours of being an Arcana. They are their idiom. They are the same.

They're not the same. The idea of forgiveness and the idea of renewal exists even without Penuel to stand for them. That's like saying the destruction cannot exist without Tower to stand for it, and that's giving them far more power than I think they have.

They are their idiom. That does not mean that everything that is their idiom is them, and I damn well never said that.

The fact that four of them are dead, and all of the ideas they are made of continue to exist just fine without them is proof of that.

When you say "they are their idiom, they're the same" it's a perfectly valid interpretation of that statement, Matthew. But at least in this, we're in agreement. So by definition, they cannot be "the same". The Arcana are beings who embody the ideals of their idiom, but as we've seen in Penuel, they apparently don't embody all of them.

[He sounds thoughtful, now.]

Penuel did tell me specifically to show and stand for the ideals that they do not, right now-- the forgiveness and renewal parts. Which makes me wonder how much they are aware that they are stuck in this extremely judging, rules-bound mindset, whether focusing on telling me everything I ought to stand for was instinctive or intentional.

[coming from a person who regards himself and the telephone angels that share his body as 'the same'...well, possibly Matthew has a somewhat different interpretation of that phrase]

Whatever the reasons are: we will not stand for them winning the the World as long as they are 'extremely judging', as you put it. You only need to look at this liminal to see the kind of world they might choose to create; one where we are always watched, and judged. No one needs that kind of universe.

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[A few days into liminal space] Judged Conversations

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