Arcana-talk time [A day or two into the new liminal]

[professorwolf]

We're still assuming that the liminal space before a Jaunt represents the Arcana competing in it, yes? I know someone's mentioned this earlier, but it definitely needs to be highlighted-- I think it's pretty obvious this time that the contest will be between Chariot and Tower. The giant wooden horse running through a thunderstorm really couldn't be more blatant. For once.

[He's not great at understanding symbolism, but damn if this wasn't an easy one.]

So if that's right, it'll be a contest of motion and persistence, versus dramatic change and catastrophe. I think it's easy enough to decide who we want to support, in this case. We'll just have to find ways to make sure we see what sort of conditions make for a win for each ideal.

Any ideas for what to look for and how to keep things from devolving into a catastrophe? Those seem to happen a lot when we're around, unfortunately.

Comments

[loyalrebel]

...Lupa. I hope that you are not suggesting that we change a well documented historical event.

The past should not be changed because we want some different outcome for one reason or another.

[papacerberus]

If we knew for certain the future of this world and that this war was supposed to happen, no, I wouldn't think of it. But there is evidence to suggest that there are many, many different worlds, some more similar than others. We're all from different worlds, where even if they're similar, the same events didn't necessarily happen, or happen in the same way. Kanji is from Inaba. From my understanding, Naoto is from Inaba, but things happened differently in the past, creating a different world. Likewise, Brooklyn, Pogtopia City, Newport, Colchis, and Nova Venezia are all cities on Earth at different times, but they don't appear to be the same Earth. I can't imagine Nova Venezia being in the history of Colchis, or of Newport for that matter.

The far lasting effects of our appearance on jaunts should be considered carefully, but I'm not certain we have the ability to determine which world we're going to, and whether or not the history of our worlds as we know it applies, at least in advance of our arrival.

It may be the war just as it happened in your world, in which case I trust you and Altair to recognize it and give us information so we can act accordingly. It may be the war, but with differences of one kind or another. In that scenario your knowledge would be useful, but not entirely accurate. It may not be the war at all. At the moment, all we can do is plan for as many eventualities as we can think of.

[loyalrebel]

And? Just because there are many of them does not mean that we should get to decide what happens in them regardless of what the native population wishes or what it does in the game of our hosts.

I also... I think we should first eliminate more of them from the running before forcing stalemates. That way if we do make a mistake and tip it towards one or another, it is not one of the more chaotic or malevolent of them who gains traction.

[papacerberus]

What would you suggest? Our interference isn't ideal, but the only way I can think of that would minimize the changes we set in motion would be for every investigator to return to Liminal the moment we arrive and stay there. But because we are forced into these worlds, and our presence will start changing them, regardless of our personal thoughts on the matter, they are choices we must make. And we don't know what's best for the worlds we visit any more than the natives do, Malik. I feel a little like I'm betraying my men to admit it, but all those thousands of deaths in the Junkyard...in the end, I can't help but think that that was the best way it could have ended, in regards to the future of my world.

Balancing what might be good for the individual world in the short term, in the long term, and what might be good for all worlds after the game ends, may be impossible. It will prove impossible on several jaunts, I'm sure. What we need most in order to change not the worlds, but the game that threatens all of them is time, which is our most limited resource at the moment. I wouldn't have suggested a delaying tactic like forcing a draw otherwise. I know that doing such a thing would be incredibly difficult at the very best, and impossible at worst, but with so many focused on a single goal of removing Tower from the game, I felt that there should be at least a reminder that that shouldn't be the only option we think about.

But also, for the option of changing the game, if it's possible, we would need all of the Arcana, even Tower. The more of them that are eliminated, the harder it would be to return them to the game if we should find a way to alter it. I've been silent on this thought too long already, and for that I apologize to everyone.

[loyalrebel]

You are not listening.

I am saying that we should first make sure that the ones who are proponents of wholesale slaughter and disaster should be removed from the running first.

And then we can try to force stalemates.

[papacerberus]

I could accuse the same, Malik. But I believe it's more that we're misunderstanding what each other is saying than understanding and choosing to ignore it.

Forcing a stalemate is merely a delaying tactic, not the main point of my suggestion. It doesn't need to happen at all, although I feel giving us more time could only be a benefit. My suggestion involves changing the game so that there isn't a single winner, but rather all of the Arcana get the "prize" at the end--and all being reflected equally, everything in the worlds is balanced.

Removing Arcana from the running is counterproductive to that idea, even Tower. Even Devil. Should my suggestion prove something that is possible, they'll need to be returned to the game if they've been removed. Finding a way so that no further Arcana are removed would make less difficulty in the future.

[Lupa does his best to communicate his sigh.]

However, I acknowledge that my suggestion may not be possible. In that case Tower's win could cause damage to worlds that don't need such things, and I will support Chariot if I'm able. There isn't enough time to make headway in researching the feasibility of my idea at this point, and I do hear and understand the objections to attempting a stalemate during this contest.

[Lupa still thinks that focusing on just one option, especially the one the Arcana want, and excluding all others is a bad idea, but he knows that saying it out loud will probably only cause further arguments, so he keeps quiet.]

But that does bring us back to the question of how to support Chariot. What do you propose that doesn't change history?

[loyalrebel]

Your idea is not a bad one, just at this point it would be wise to make it so that the rounds going ahead are easier to predict and do so with.

[papacerberus]

Mm.

[A long pause.]

May I seek you out later to talk? I don't believe I'm seeing entirely clearly at the moment--I'm frustrated, with myself most of all.

[Realizing that he nearly snapped at Malik has made him step back, and yeah, he has some things to think about. He just doesn't like this feeling, like whatever they do do will end up pointless or wrong or worthless--]

[loyalrebel]

Of course.

I will either be in my office or the library itself.

[papacerberus]

I will be there once I've composed my thoughts.

[With that, Lupa turns to do so, attempting to tune out the network.]