Arcana-talk time [A day or two into the new liminal]

[professorwolf]

We're still assuming that the liminal space before a Jaunt represents the Arcana competing in it, yes? I know someone's mentioned this earlier, but it definitely needs to be highlighted-- I think it's pretty obvious this time that the contest will be between Chariot and Tower. The giant wooden horse running through a thunderstorm really couldn't be more blatant. For once.

[He's not great at understanding symbolism, but damn if this wasn't an easy one.]

So if that's right, it'll be a contest of motion and persistence, versus dramatic change and catastrophe. I think it's easy enough to decide who we want to support, in this case. We'll just have to find ways to make sure we see what sort of conditions make for a win for each ideal.

Any ideas for what to look for and how to keep things from devolving into a catastrophe? Those seem to happen a lot when we're around, unfortunately.

Comments

[memoryandtheft]

Is it, though? Sometimes you need dramatic, sweeping change.

Unless you're looking at what's best for us, not necessarily for the world we land on.

[awitchdidit]

Tower as an arcanum is useful for clearing away problems, brokenness, and bondage to the past. It's an important part of existence...but probably not something we want in charge of existence, lest nothing have a chance to be built in the first place before it's cleared away.

It's possible that Tower might have the more ethical objective in the Jaunt, but that becomes a question of whether we are concerned more with one world, or the entire universe that the Arcana are supposedly competing for.

[runawaystory]

...I don't think Tower wants catastrophe and change in charge, exactly. I think Tower just wants to see this whole -- system of jaunts, and the game between the Arcana -- wrecked.

Tower didn't seem entirely clear on what would happen after that.

[professorwolf]

Yes, that's my concern here. Tower doesn't seem to have any plans for replacing what it tears down, and whether all he wants is to take down the Jaunts, from what I understand he will still be the one reflected throughout the universe. Change is all well and good, but there must be something to come afterwards.

[runawaystory]

He suggested asking 'SAGE' about what might come after... Does that name sound familiar? I'm guessing that's another Arcana but I haven't heard that name before.

[professorwolf]

Ah, that would be the Hermit. He's the one we got out of the Grid, who had been trapped there by Devil and Lovers, as I recall. That was... my first Jaunt, actually.

[memoryandtheft]

There isn't any of them I'd want in charge of a potted plant, let alone the universe.

[awitchdidit]

Also fair! Personally I think there are a few we can negotiate with and a few we can't. Tower would be one of the latter, actually.

[memoryandtheft]

Negotiation's never really been my strong suit.

[She's one of the world's blunt instruments. Usually, she's okay with that.]

[awitchdidit]

Ahaha, mine either, honestly, but if it's someone else who likes playing games I can at least play to a stalemate pretty reliably.

[fridgeninja]

Do you think there might be a way to stop any of them from winning?

[memoryandtheft]

Yeah. I do. But if we just blindly play their game, we're never going to find it.

[fridgeninja]

I think that sounds worth trying to find. What did you have in mind?

[professorwolf]

I'm looking for what's best for the universe as a whole. Whoever wins this match is one rather large step closer to being reflected throughout all the worlds these Arcana touch, if they're to be believed. Whether a catastrophic change is what this particular world needs might be less important than the fact that not every world needs catastrophic change... particularly when I get the feeling Tower doesn't really care what happens afterwards.

[memoryandtheft]

I don't really get the impression any of them care what happens afterward, except as it relates to their own power base and goals. And I'm not really good with the thought of leaving a horrible situation in place just because bringing it down might mean we have more work to do in the long run.

[professorwolf]

There are times when one person, or one group of people, is less important than the whole... but I understand. I'd feel awfully guilty about it, if that is what happens. Still, as someone else just reminded me, change is in fact part of Chariot's ideals, as well. It just needs to be controlled rather than the sort of change that results in burning a city down.

If we can manage to bring about whatever change this new world needs without destroying anything, we might get the best of both worlds.

[memoryandtheft]

The second we start saying "hey, sorry about screwing up your world, but we need to tip the cosmic balance in a direction that suits us, and you're just kind of in the way" is the second we become as bad as any of our jailers.

I'm not saying we should go in ready to set the world on fire, but we need to act on the situation we find, not play metaphysical chess with people's lives before we even have any information.

[professorwolf]

I'm not saying we try to ruin their world, or even that we don't try to help them. But there are generally multiple ways to reach any end goal, and trying to find the solution that doesn't involve letting everything go up in flames a la Tower's ideology might be the best option here.

Nor am I saying it's about self-interest-- you keep misrepresenting me, here. There are a multitude of worlds in the balance in this awful process, not just one, and certainly not just our personal interest. If it were about our personal interest, we should all support the Arcana that promises us the thing we want most, not the one that seems like it would create the most liveable universe if they won. It's certainly a terrible thing to have to determine, but that doesn't mean we aren't stuck determining it anyhow.

[hazardlight]

Sweeping dramatic change ain't much good without a solid follow up plan, dude.

I ain't happy with the idea of prioritizing our success over a world, but things'd have to be pretty damn dire before "wreck shit and leave" looks more appealing than "accomplish something."

[memoryandtheft]

You're kidding yourself if you think "wreck shit and leave" isn't what we're doing every single time.

[hazardlight]

...the inside of your head must be a really depressing place to live.

private

[dreamingking]

Toby, while I certainly understand why you're arguing, if they're adamant on re-enacting certain portions of Greek myth like they seem to be, better not to waste your breath.

We've dealt with far more organized and dangerous opposition in the past, after all, and the punishments for hubris can be so entertaining.

private

[memoryandtheft]

It stops being funny when innocent people start getting caught in the crossfire.

But you're right. I should know a pointless argument when I'm in one by this point.

private

[dreamingking]

You have a point there, unfortunately. Let us hope actual Greek gods don’t get involved. They were quite careless about that.

I don’t blame you for trying.

private

[memoryandtheft]

Somehow I don't get the feeling we're going to be that lucky.